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Post by 77bengal on Oct 3, 2017 0:50:12 GMT -5
Guys, your protest against the NFL's players and the NFL in general is misguided. I know you're doing what you think is right in your heart, but you need to self-reflect. First of all, almost no one knows you're not posting on this board, so your absence is meaningless.
The leagues players stood against President Trump after he ridiculed them and their profession. Nothing more, nothing less. They were not, in any way, shape nor form, disrespecting our soldiers or the military. That has been made abundantly clear. I don't know why you can't see this. Another strange aspect to all of this is the fact that many of the players that were unfairly criticized supported Trump's campaign and voted for him! I sure hope you guys aren't standing against the players just because you voted for Trump and you think he's infallible or just because Fox News told you to do so.
Like I posted earlier, Trump made a mistake like all Presidents do. He should apologize and move forward and fix some real problems instead of worrying about kneeling, standing or Twitter. Trump is responsible for what comes out of his pie hole and no one else.
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Post by Rodneck on Oct 3, 2017 1:04:24 GMT -5
I think the general political climate is detestable on all sides. I will not have any politics thrown in my face, especially by millionaires taking half baked stances. If every time someone points out something wrong in this country it is an excuse to tear it all down and declare it somebody else's, I won't stand for it. I am no rah rah patriot. In fact I barely know what the fuck that means other than the obvious. But what is obvious is that it's something to be scorned and I do not like that black people in this country define themselves as black first then American second. It's the definition of prejudice and they go wagging fingers around with the P word in everybody's face. Add to that I hate our coach and owner and have for a while and a 1-3 start I can walk away til 2018 no problem. Trump is a sub par human being but truth be told I have taken no great inspiration from any president in my lifetime.I believe in what he is doing but not what he is saying. Most men do not have more than one great talent. Doing is Trump's virtue. Talking is not. This Trump bashing mania though I think is entertaining and comical! I call it Dumb and Dumber. The reaction to him is far more stupid than the man himself. Either way, much like a religious zealot preaching in your ear I won't have either. I'm done for 2018. But obviously I cannot help but be interested in my hometown team albeit dominantly after the fact. Not watching any football til next August. That's where I stand and it has been well thought out before this laughable protest! We all gotta do what we gotta do 77. I respect your actions. Any man or woman at any time must do what is best for them and their self preservation. Mine is to punt this entire season.
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Post by steelerwoman on Oct 4, 2017 10:17:59 GMT -5
I’m pretty sure you’re not talking to me, but I haven’t felt the urge to harass you guys as much as in years past. As for the flag/anthem thing, I don’t (personally) care, nor am I offended. My brother was never the same after 3 tours in Vietnam, but I know he didn’t go there for the flag or the anthem, but the ideals they represent. When people burned the flag in protest of that war, it was also a hot button issue. Many people’s natural reaction was to be offended, but I am 100% with the Supreme’s on this - that there is nothing more in line with our ideals than the exercise of free speech. If, as a consumer of football, you don’t want to watch it as your form of protest, I get that too. I’m just not fussed about it, one way or the other. In some ways, these players ought to thank Trump for reminding everyone that these guys were protesting. For me, it had already become a non-issue. As someone who watched news footage of protesters being pepper sprayed and clubbed by police in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s, it always felt like a half-assed “gesture.”
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Post by Rodneck on Oct 4, 2017 10:53:28 GMT -5
I’m pretty sure you’re not talking to me, but I haven’t felt the urge to harass you guys as much as in years past. As for the flag/anthem thing, I don’t (personally) care, nor am I offended. My brother was never the same after 3 tours in Vietnam, but I know he didn’t go there for the flag or the anthem, but the ideals they represent. When people burned the flag in protest of that war, it was also a hot button issue. Many people’s natural reaction was to be offended, but I am 100% with the Supreme’s on this - that there is nothing more in line with our ideals than the exercise of free speech. If, as a consumer of football, you don’t want to watch it as your form of protest, I get that too. I’m just not fussed about it, one way or the other. In some ways, these players ought to thank Trump for reminding everyone that these guys were protesting. For me, it had already become a non-issue. As someone who watched news footage of protesters being pepper sprayed and clubbed by police in the late ‘60s and early ‘70s, it always felt like a half-added “gesture.” You bring up a great point. Comparing the magnitude of the Vietnam War protests to this sham protest is apples and oranges. But largely most of the culture was a reaction to life in America in 1957. 60 years later we still have these cookie cutter protests that fairly assume the same conditions. I don't think they are close. That's my point. One is a perfectly apropos time and place thing and the other is a fuckin joke! HAHA!! Political capital these days is cheap and bandied about recklessly IMO. On a day where skin color and background yields to the team concept and we all participate in the collective drama for me politics ruins it and I won't have it. I am less offended than I am astounded at the complete and total hypocrisy I think the conditions of the protests even exist in. I am not going to go into great detail about the issue but protesting cops on game day when there has been an ongoing inner city slaughter for decades reeks of ignorance. We all know the saying wolf in sheep's clothing. This is racism in moral righteousness's clothing. People are free to do what they want. I have no issue with any other person's individual civil liberty. But if this is where and when you want to do it I am exercising my free will to turn the page on your ass! Because politics has so inundated our daily lives all of the sudden I find myself closing doors on the phenomenon. I will not be force fed this BS. |
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Post by 77bengal on Oct 4, 2017 13:35:57 GMT -5
Rod, I really don't care if a person loves Trump or hates him. I only care about the quality of the person in front of me. If I get along with the person across from me, that's all that matters. Politics be damned.
All Presidents, regardless of political affiliation, are tools at times. It's just the nature of the game. But we citizens condone it by believing every untrue soundbite we hear on our favorite misleading news channel. Why? Because they say what we want to hear, not what we need to know. That my friend is a vicious cycle that we're all guilty of feeding at some point in our lives. I just hate to see good people led around by the nose by manipulators and charlatans whose true agenda is actually much different than their own. Good people that tow the line even when every fiber of their being, of their morality, tells them to do otherwise.
Those at the top, the manipulators, the string pullers, they're our nations true enemy. If conservatives and liberals realized that they all want, more or less, the same things, we'd see a lot more production. But those behind the curtain don't want us to sit together and discuss our needs and desires whether it be a good job, braces for the kids, healthcare, a new car, a nice home and a vacation to the beach once a year. They want to keep us separated, enemies not to be trusted, and that's why I refuse to buy into this 'you must hate NFL players' mantra. I think the quote you use on this site says it all.
"The average man is a conformist, accepting miseries and disasters with the stoicism of a cow standing in the rain". -Colin Wilson
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Post by lostwou on Oct 4, 2017 15:13:45 GMT -5
My reasons for boycotting are these. I think if they want to protest its nor the time or the place. I have stopped watching the news because I think everyone on both sides need to grow up. I am sick of seeing and hearing all the arguing and garbage. So I do my best to escape it. Football was one escape. No more. Its even on there now. I tune in to watch football not politics. If I want that I will watch the news or read about it..Also they say its not about the flag or the anthem. Then they shouldn't be using either as a platform to promote their agenda.
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Post by Rodneck on Oct 4, 2017 17:24:07 GMT -5
During the last election cycle I had to define specifically what and who I am. I am agnostic, politically an independent, don't identify as a member of the white race, and believe in the pluralism of the American identity. As 77 said we have both sides that can't accept nearly all of that. I get called a communist and an atheist by one side and a conservative and redneck by the other side. I hate em both. And won't accept either side of the political aisle to fuck up Sunday for me. Like I said I don't love football enough that it is mandatory for me to find a way to stay under the roof. I think many are stuck watching "No matter what". These are the real sheep in the room here. I can walk away til 2018. If they don't get it by next August I'll make this elementary decision again. Either way I will not have politics shoved in my face. What offends me is I am forced to deal with it on one of the greatest days of the week. Game day.
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Post by steelerwoman on Oct 4, 2017 20:11:10 GMT -5
Me? I largely ignore it. If you’re getting a beer during the anthem and ignore the talking head shows, it might as well not exist at all.
Btw, I wasn’t comparing the quality of he protests, just the form. Watching flags burn incensed people from the WWII and Korean War eras. They couldn’t get past the symbols and down to the essence of what they represented.
But, I hear you. I’m not surprised the NFL is seeing such a downturn in ratings. That, too, is the essence of who we are.
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Post by Rodneck on Oct 5, 2017 10:09:49 GMT -5
Rod, I really don't care if a person loves Trump or hates him. I only care about the quality of the person in front of me. If I get along with the person across from me, that's all that matters. Politics be damned. All Presidents, regardless of political affiliation, are tools at times. It's just the nature of the game. But we citizens condone it by believing every untrue soundbite we hear on our favorite misleading news channel. Why? Because they say what we want to hear, not what we need to know. That my friend is a vicious cycle that we're all guilty of feeding at some point in our lives. I just hate to see good people led around by the nose by manipulators and charlatans whose true agenda is actually much different than their own. Good people that tow the line even when every fiber of their being, of their morality, tells them to do otherwise. Those at the top, the manipulators, the string pullers, they're our nations true enemy. If conservatives and liberals realized that they all want, more or less, the same things, we'd see a lot more production. But those behind the curtain don't want us to sit together and discuss our needs and desires whether it be a good job, braces for the kids, healthcare, a new car, a nice home and a vacation to the beach once a year. They want to keep us separated, enemies not to be trusted, and that's why I refuse to buy into this 'you must hate NFL players' mantra. I think the quote you use on this site says it all. "The average man is a conformist, accepting miseries and disasters with the stoicism of a cow standing in the rain". -Colin Wilson The first line really resonates with me 77 because that is how I operate on a day to day basis too. I listen to news, which these days is a very hard thing to do without getting into the created narratives. What I don't listen to is interpretations of the news. That is my domain. To your last paragraph, it couldn't be more true. Pointing out the contrast as opposed to the complimentary is creating major division. On this issue we can simply agree to disagree and do it in a friendly manner. That to me is the essence of the American way. |
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Post by Rodneck on Oct 5, 2017 10:11:43 GMT -5
My reasons for boycotting are these. I think if they want to protest its nor the time or the place. I have stopped watching the news because I think everyone on both sides need to grow up. I am sick of seeing and hearing all the arguing and garbage. So I do my best to escape it. Football was one escape. No more. Its even on there now. I tune in to watch football not politics. If I want that I will watch the news or read about it..Also they say its not about the flag or the anthem. Then they shouldn't be using either as a platform to promote their agenda. Couldn't be more true Lost. Especially the last part. If it's not about that shut the fuck up! LOL! |
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Post by 77bengal on Oct 5, 2017 21:40:32 GMT -5
Rod, I really don't care if a person loves Trump or hates him. I only care about the quality of the person in front of me. If I get along with the person across from me, that's all that matters. Politics be damned. All Presidents, regardless of political affiliation, are tools at times. It's just the nature of the game. But we citizens condone it by believing every untrue soundbite we hear on our favorite misleading news channel. Why? Because they say what we want to hear, not what we need to know. That my friend is a vicious cycle that we're all guilty of feeding at some point in our lives. I just hate to see good people led around by the nose by manipulators and charlatans whose true agenda is actually much different than their own. Good people that tow the line even when every fiber of their being, of their morality, tells them to do otherwise. Those at the top, the manipulators, the string pullers, they're our nations true enemy. If conservatives and liberals realized that they all want, more or less, the same things, we'd see a lot more production. But those behind the curtain don't want us to sit together and discuss our needs and desires whether it be a good job, braces for the kids, healthcare, a new car, a nice home and a vacation to the beach once a year. They want to keep us separated, enemies not to be trusted, and that's why I refuse to buy into this 'you must hate NFL players' mantra. I think the quote you use on this site says it all. "The average man is a conformist, accepting miseries and disasters with the stoicism of a cow standing in the rain". -Colin Wilson The first line really resonates with me 77 because that is how I operate on a day to day basis too. I listen to news, which these days is a very hard thing to do without getting into the created narratives. What I don't listen to is interpretations of the news. That is my domain. To your last paragraph, it couldn't be more true. Pointing out the contrast as opposed to the complimentary is creating major division. On this issue we can simply agree to disagree and do it in a friendly manner. That to me is the essence of the American way. Agree with me or disagree, I still like the guy across from me.  Also, my post is directed at all, not any particular group. We're all guilty. |
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Post by 77bengal on Oct 7, 2017 19:58:22 GMT -5
During the last election cycle I had to define specifically what and who I am. I am agnostic, politically an independent, don't identify as a member of the white race, and believe in the pluralism of the American identity. As 77 said we have both sides that can't accept nearly all of that. I get called a communist and an atheist by one side and a conservative and redneck by the other side. I hate em both. And won't accept either side of the political aisle to fuck up Sunday for me. Like I said I don't love football enough that it is mandatory for me to find a way to stay under the roof. I think many are stuck watching "No matter what". These are the real sheep in the room here. I can walk away til 2018. If they don't get it by next August I'll make this elementary decision again. Either way I will not have politics shoved in my face. What offends me is I am forced to deal with it on one of the greatest days of the week. Game day. This post is so in-depth and honest. Too bad some members of our society hide from who they really are. Thanks Rod for not pulling punches. Now it's my turn (gulp)! But before I go any further, I want to state that I always salute or stand with my hand over my heart when the National Anthem is played. My dad served in the Navy and I took a few Military Science courses while attending OU. We did everything from learning how to march, salute, rappel, read a military/strategic map, etc., so I have a bit of a military background but this shouldn't be confused with those that sign up to defend our country full-time. What I did was minor in comparison. My great uncle was a machine gunner during WWII. After the war, he was 'credited' with over 300 kills, mostly Nazi's, but everyone knew the 'real' number of kills was much higher. On one particular mission, he was temporarily separated from his company. After entering a town that had been pretty much leveled, he spotted a Nazi, (possibly a member of the Waffen SS) and his foe spotted him. At that moment, both men knew that one would live and the other would die. This was going to be a fight to the death. Both men immediately ran to cover to figure out their next move. After a certain amount of time had passed (I don't know how much time it took) of playing cat and mouse with one another, my uncle found his enemy hiding inside the room of a building that had been pretty much demolished. Fortunately, my uncle 'got the jump' on his Nazi counterpart and shot him dead. Per protocol, my uncle approached his fallen foe and retrieved his ID. After opening the mans ID case, a picture of the soldier, his wife and his children fell out. My uncle slept with the lights on and a radio playing in his bedroom for the rest of his life. How did our government repay him? They didn't. I had another uncle that served in Vietnam. He died about ten years ago from stomach cancer. The docs thought that Agent Orange could have caused his cancer, but there was no way to prove it. One of my direct descendants served during the Civil War and fought at all of the major battles such as Gettysburg, Bull Run (Manassas for you southerners), Antietam, etc. His commemorative certificate hangs in my parents house. As far as I know, it's the only thing he received after his service. I thought I'd insert these stories to give everyone a better perspective of injustices done by our government concerning our military personnel as well as giving everyone a better perspective of myself and my families military background. I don't want anyone thinking I'm anti-military just because I happen to think differently. Anyway, here's my perspective of what's going on concerning the National Anthem and the NFL. I don't have a problem with Colin Kaepernick or any other player kneeling during the National Anthem and here's my reasoning. First and foremost, the Anthem symbolizes the freedoms that we all enjoy as citizens of the USA and battles fought to preserve it. The freedoms that my uncles fought for and countless others served and died for, so the very idea that NFL players, in the year 2017, should be forced to stand for the Anthem fly in face of the ideals that our country was founded upon and what the Anthem represents. We're not North Korea, but forcing players to stand for the Anthem is North Korea-ish and I'm opposed to it. Secondly, the rights of every individual in this country outweigh the Anthem. The Anthem merely symbolizes all the great ideals, freedoms and deeds that our forefathers and others fought for. Not the other way around. Protesting is and always has been (Boston Tea Party) a way of making our country better by bringing attention to a particular problem and/or a perceived problem. Now, does this mean that every single protest and/or protestor has a legitimate complaint that needs to be addressed? No. Public opinion and/or the courts will make that determination. Sometimes we/they get it right, sometimes we/they don't. Thirdly, all those that are protesting are NOT protesting against our military, our veterans or the flag and it's too bad that some talking heads in a few 'sketchy' media outlets have twisted it into just this. The protestors are protesting against inequality, nothing more, nothing less, which is a noble cause. One may disagree that inequality still exists in our country, but the players that are protesting truly think that inequality, prejudice and racism still exists in our country and they would like it to end. I'm not trying to change anyones opinion nor start a big debate on this thread. I'm just trying to illustrate that there are other perspectives out there, perspectives that are just as honorable, if not more so, than any we've seen so far that are being turned into something they're not. For example, there's a narrative that's being spun from a few media outlets that accuse the protestors of being nothing more than ungrateful and overpaid athletes that have nothing to complain about. What these 'spinners' are leaving out is the fact that inequality crosses all economic lines and that the protestors are almost assuredly more concerned with those that aren't as wealthy as themselves. If this isn't true, then please tell me how Colin Kaepernick has benefitted by protesting? He hasn't. Quite the contrary. He's been black-balled by the league and has lost tens of millions of dollars. Whether you agree with him or not, that's your decision, one can't deny his legitimacy. Just my two cents worth. |
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Post by Rodneck on Oct 9, 2017 10:44:59 GMT -5
Thanks for that 77. I appreciate all you and your family have been through. Myself in particular have a take that you won't hear anywhere or on any news channel perspective and I think it's a new vision and interpretation of what is happening. Interpretations tend to fall into either/or status and they get antiquated. The ground shifts but nobody realized that anything has changed much. I tend to not care about the pure military interpretation of the anthem. I care about the ideality of it all. America IMO is the highest ideal conceived on this planet. It is a living, breathing idea. It is a plural reality. It is not mine or yours. It is ours. In it's most basic form the ideal of America is the uniting principle. the tie that binds. When I hear the anthem and see the flag I get that tinge of pride that I am participating in a great experiment. When I see somebody what I think is arbitrarily dismissing the entire concept I think less of that person. I do think they are missing the point and worse it is taught ignorance. I think the way this protest has been laid out is less social awareness than another sinister reality that is apparently not perceived at all. It is unimaginable to nearly all. I think in declaring the flag and the anthem and the concept of America as the white man's concept is black racism pure and simple. See we only hear about white racism and the clan and the neo Nazis and white nationalists. But I see equal opportunity racism out there and black racism in this day and age outshines white racism by a landslide. Don't believe me? Check your local police incident reports and you will see who is doing more harm to who. If anything black racism has assumed fascist type status. The black power sign of a raised fist is their heil Hitler. Their one sided interpretation and even segregated events on college campuses is proof that there is a new ideal coming up through this next generation. So what on the surface looks like a 60"s style protest and a harmless exercise of the freedoms this country affords to me is something else entirely. It is a coming out party for black racism and their declaration that we live in two different America's and never shall the two meet in the middle and unite. In short I think we have done an entire 360 degree turnabout. Power never dies it only shifts. Black racism has eclipsed white racism. Left wing money is slowly supplanting right wing money. All I am seeing is more of the same. It just has a different face to it. As an agnostic, independent, a non racial identifier, a believer in the Jungian concept of the Collective Unconscious, and the pluralism of the America identity, I am deeply disappointed. Hatred and ignorance are merely changing hands, not being addressed and eliminated. I hate the entire reality. It's as though all great ideals are going for nought. It makes me sad and want to withdraw into the one place a man can enjoy his passion for freedom and exercise his individual civil liberty, solitude...
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Post by 77bengal on Oct 9, 2017 18:42:44 GMT -5
"As an agnostic, independent, a non racial identifier, a believer in the Jungian concept of the Collective Unconscious, and the pluralism of the America identity..." Now that explains a lot! LOL!
My problem with all the chatter pertaining to the Anthem kneeling is that it's divided right down political lines and that's sad. Corporations, special interest groups, etc., drive the narrative that best suits their needs. Like I eluded to earlier, liberals and conservatives are almost identical in their wants and needs, but they've been convinced through various media outlets that the other side is the coming of Satan himself. We have been pitted against one another and both sides feed from their respected bins like starving piranha. Almost everything that Americans 'claim' they hate about politics are the very things they support unaware that they're doing such. Hate to say it, but our nation suffers from an ignorance problem and I don't see that changing in my lifetime.
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Also, my post is directed at all, not any particular group. We're all guilty.