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Post by davis44 on Jul 8, 2016 21:42:04 GMT -5
The smart front office move may be to make Votto available for trade while telling teams that we'd eat his remaining salary.....my point is, what kind of package could we get in return??
Long story, short....we're not winning a championship while Votto is still 'productive.'
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Post by Rodneck on Jul 8, 2016 23:24:13 GMT -5
In light of the Heyward contract Votto would be mega valuable on an actually functional team. At this point I say go for it. Start counting your grey hairs til we contend bro!
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Post by Rodneck on Jul 8, 2016 23:27:01 GMT -5
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Post by claycc on Jul 9, 2016 0:09:39 GMT -5
Yeah, BP and Bruce (and should be Cozart as well) are the holdups on getting back to a competitive team again.
The front office wants to clear those salaries and see who might stick among the up and comers.
It ultimately comes down to when the front office is willing to open up the wallet again, to fill gaps as needed. They won't do that as long as BP and Bruce are around. Get rid of those two, and we're probably a year away, maybe two. But we can't start the clock yet.
I don't think Votto is factoring in on that at all. Looked at his season stats and noticed he's at about .316 with 8 homers over his last 38 games or so. The longer we have to wait to actually start the clock, the less value Votto will have to us. His contract is pretty backloaded. I don't think I would eat it all. Maybe half of it though.
Playing BP through an injury is stupid, especially when we can take a nice look at Peraza at 2nd while BP heals. We couldn't trade BP for much if he's taking a shit on the field due to injury. Better to just let him sit and heal completely.
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Post by vb1123 on Jul 9, 2016 15:10:45 GMT -5
Agree w/ all the above. Reds are stuck in limbo till they turn the page and get serious about this "rebuild".
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Post by brad on Jul 9, 2016 15:24:29 GMT -5
I definitely think Bruce will be gone by this time next month, and if all goes well, the return should be better than what we would have gotten last trade deadline(Zach Wheeler who still hasn't returned from TJ Surgery) & the past winter(players from the worst farm system in baseball). His play has definitely upped his value, just hope Jocketty doesn't blow it. As much as at is time for BP to move on, I don't think that no-trade is getting waived. Cozart is interesting. I think he'd good a good return, and by the time he hits free agency, he'll be 31, so you don't re-sign him for any length at that age. I guess if you can't move Phillips, trade Cozart and plug in Peraza. Depending on what we get back in trades, we currently don't have enough quality depth to replace Phillips and Cozart, unless you bring Duvall back to 3B, and give Yorman Rodriguez or Schebler an extended run LF. There's just no quality infield depth right now in the upper minors.
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Post by davis44 on Jul 11, 2016 8:53:04 GMT -5
I don't think they have the right mind-set to understand that eating his contract would actually help them in the long run.
Houston is in dire staights at 1st base, and they're in 'win now' mode. Votto for Bregman and their 1st base prospect could be a possible scenario, if they were to eat the contract.
What about the Yankees? With them u could probably split the contract. It might be enough to keep the Yankees from seller mode.
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Post by clinz on Jul 14, 2016 10:56:35 GMT -5
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Post by clinz on Jul 14, 2016 10:57:33 GMT -5
Sign me up for this. Anything to get out of that contract. |
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Post by brad on Jul 14, 2016 16:58:58 GMT -5
As a whole, I think it would be alright, though I'd probably ask for a different mix of prospects. Either way, do it.
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Post by socalredsfan on Jul 26, 2016 11:47:32 GMT -5
I would not deal Votto and eat his contract. Look around the league. His contract, based on his production is not bad at all. Secondly, I would look to re-sign Cozart for a club favored contract at all possible. There is no SS on this team that is even half as valuable. Suarez has a bat, and hopefully can play 2nd base at some point, but he's not a SS, and Peraza is a joke. This kid is one of the most overrated prospects I can remember seeing. I would deal him in a trade with someone else, if at all possible, making the trade look more valuable to another team. Peraza will NEVER help this club.
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Post by Rodneck on Jul 26, 2016 13:33:07 GMT -5
I would not deal Votto and eat his contract. Look around the league. His contract, based on his production is not bad at all. Secondly, I would look to re-sign Cozart for a club favored contract at all possible. There is no SS on this team that is even half as valuable. Suarez has a bat, and hopefully can play 2nd base at some point, but he's not a SS, and Peraza is a joke. This kid is one of the most overrated prospects I can remember seeing. I would deal him in a trade with someone else, if at all possible, making the trade look more valuable to another team. Peraza will NEVER help this club. Wow. Let it rip why don't ya! I really don't disagree with what you have to say here but I am not writing off a young kid like Peraza til he plays everyday and confirms what he really is good or bad. We see cookie cutter prospects turn into a steaming pile of dogshit just as often as we see mediocrities become superstars when it clicks for them. Where we are at right now I am definitely looking and hoping to find that shiny side of this dismal reality. Extending old players for contention that could be 2020 is not my idea of smart. That guys like Bruce and Cozart are playing well is optimal for everything. We can get a modicum of value. They can get an opportunity. We get to see what the potential of the future is. I get the sense we are running in place as is Chris. |
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Post by claycc on Jul 26, 2016 18:51:23 GMT -5
I kinda get where Chris is coming from with Peraza. Peraza and Hamilton are redundant parts, with Hamilton playing much better this season. Their style is basically the same in making contact. My grandpa used to always hate when the Reds played the Astros back in the 80s because the Astros usually had a couple of high-contact speedsters at the top of the order. They bunt a lot and drive the ball into the turf out front of the plate often as well, going for big bounces that fielders often had to wait on before they could make throws to 1st, giving the speedsters plenty of time to race down the line. This is what Hamilton and Peraza should bring to the Reds, IF the Reds were playing on turf anyhow. Since they are not, there is no real advantage there and it doesn't make sense to have both in the same lineup. Plus, I think they went after Peraza because they were about to give up on Hamilton. Hamilton has changed that perception back into his favor.
I don't like the idea of eating Votto's contract either. He's batting .400+ for July. He's still, by far, the most dangerous guy in the lineup. Its helping a lot that Duvall was on fire for as long as he was and Bruce is showing that he has bounced back big time. If contenders are not giving Bruce a look for a potential trade to put them over the hump, they are stupid. Because Bruce seems to be playing hungry right now.
As for Cozart, he might be the best option at SS for now, but he has to go at some point. He's not worth what the Reds will have to start paying him and even a relative bargain contract will be hefty, compared to a potential league minimum salary. Suarez can't move over to SS from 3B... he's not really good enough for either and is better off for 2B once BP is gone. But having Peraza around probably make Suarez either expendable or stuck at 3B, which means someone in the outfield is becoming expendable at some point, even if Bruce is already gone.
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Post by Rodneck on Jul 26, 2016 21:21:34 GMT -5
Playing fantasy baseball has really affected how I look at players. Peraza has played sparingly at best and he is 23 years old and he is being written off on a dime. When you see guys like Edwin Encarnacion or JD Martinez take off later in their careers the whole evaluation process is mud. We don't know who is gonna be what. But 1 thing we do know is we are never ever going to find out if those players don't play. In our situation hanging onto these guys is just obscuring the future.
But hey fuck it we are caught in an Ice Age where ownership moves at glacial paces. Let's just freeze dry this BS and go nowhere for a decade. I told Davis the other day let's start counting grey hairs til we compete bro!
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Post by socalredsfan on Jul 27, 2016 13:08:53 GMT -5
I kinda get where Chris is coming from with Peraza. Peraza and Hamilton are redundant parts, with Hamilton playing much better this season. Their style is basically the same in making contact. My grandpa used to always hate when the Reds played the Astros back in the 80s because the Astros usually had a couple of high-contact speedsters at the top of the order. They bunt a lot and drive the ball into the turf out front of the plate often as well, going for big bounces that fielders often had to wait on before they could make throws to 1st, giving the speedsters plenty of time to race down the line. This is what Hamilton and Peraza should bring to the Reds, IF the Reds were playing on turf anyhow. Since they are not, there is no real advantage there and it doesn't make sense to have both in the same lineup. Plus, I think they went after Peraza because they were about to give up on Hamilton. Hamilton has changed that perception back into his favor. I don't like the idea of eating Votto's contract either. He's batting .400+ for July. He's still, by far, the most dangerous guy in the lineup. Its helping a lot that Duvall was on fire for as long as he was and Bruce is showing that he has bounced back big time. If contenders are not giving Bruce a look for a potential trade to put them over the hump, they are stupid. Because Bruce seems to be playing hungry right now. As for Cozart, he might be the best option at SS for now, but he has to go at some point. He's not worth what the Reds will have to start paying him and even a relative bargain contract will be hefty, compared to a potential league minimum salary. Suarez can't move over to SS from 3B... he's not really good enough for either and is better off for 2B once BP is gone. But having Peraza around probably make Suarez either expendable or stuck at 3B, which means someone in the outfield is becoming expendable at some point, even if Bruce is already gone. Clay, my point about Peraza is derived from his minor league numbers as well. If you look at this AAA numbers, and his MLB numbers (small sample size, I get that), his OBP is less than MLB average OBP's, and his ability to walk is just abysmal. The difference for me with Hamilton, in comparison though, is that he is an absolute game changer with his defense. Hell, he puts up positive WAR numbers because of his defense alone. You mentioned Duvall, and looking at the pipeline, I'm not sure I wouldn't be looking to work Duvall in at 3rd some, because we could potentially see two kids move into the outfield shortly, and 3rd base would need to be filled, because in my opinion, you can't keep Suarez at 3rd. He's horrible over there. As for Cozart, at the very least, he's still under team control for I think 2 years; maybe just one more. My point about him is that we have NO ONE in the system that can play SS at any degree of MLB caliber. His defense is off the charges good, and I'm not sure that he would be that expensive, especially under a two year deal. Part of my feelings on this, come from the reality, that this year thus far, doesn't seem to have garnered a whole lot in interest in him from other teams yet. Why give him up for so little, when he won't be very expensive? You mentioned league minimum salary as an option for SS, but who would that be? By the way, I'm all for trading him if we can get some real benefit in return, but dumping him for the likes of a Peraza type is crazy to me, and right now, I'm not sure we could even get someone like that for him. I'm sort of the same belief regarding Bruce too. If we aren't getting a $hit load for him, then hold onto him, and work on dealing him in the winter. Worst case scenario you have a top notch hitter at a fair price in your system still. |
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